At Your Own Risk: Part 1 – Ep. 310

Welcome to the Accumulating Wealth podcast. I’m Judson Crawford. And I’m Hunter Satterfield. We are CPAs, wealth advisors, and partners at CWA, a financial services firm here to help you navigate the decisions you face every day. And today, we’re starting a two-part conversation around risk and the different kinds investors actually deal with. 

That’s right, because when people hear the word risk, they usually think, “Am I going to lose money?” But there’s a little bit more to it. Exactly. Across these two episodes, we’re going to cover the four big types: systematic, unsystematic, tolerance, and retirement risk. And we’ll have a guest with us each time to talk through what they mean, why they matter, and what you can actually do about them. Perfect. Let’s go. 

Okay, so Hunter, today we have a returning guest. We think number three. Thrice. Yeah. Thrice guest. Who do we have? That’s right, folks. We got Caitlin Bryan, our very own Caitlin Bryan. This is where we would push the button that does the applause, but she’s one of our wealth advisors over in wealth management, and you know her as an Aggie, a very diehard Aggie but also a spark plug like crazy. All kinds of fun that we’re going to have today. So welcome, Caitlin. Thank you. 

Well, I love this topic, Judson, and listeners, I think what we really want to start with is when you hear the word risk, oftentimes you just think investments. And that is absolutely not it, right, Judson? 

I mean, there’s so much more to risk. And so, if you’re, like, immediately going to tune out because you’re like, “Oh, it’s just investing. That doesn’t really matter to me right now,” or whatever, I think this is one you have to listen to because the reality is, Judson, that when we step out of bed in the morning, we as humans are taking risk each and every step thereafter, right? 

Yeah, I mean, I think, if we really take a step back and look at it, so many decisions that you make on a daily basis are a risk-based decision, right? We just focus on the investment risk because you talk about it when you come into your financial advisor, you may take a questionnaire, or it’s focused on as risk more. But so many things in life are risk-based decisions, right? I mean, anything from the types of insurances that you cover yourself with to whether you get that taco from Taco Bell. 

Yeah, if you even go to Taco Bell. Well, this is actually a good time. We should all discuss what is the riskiest thing that we enjoy doing? Caitlin, let’s start with you. What is the riskiest thing that you enjoy doing in life? 

I don’t know if I enjoy doing it. The riskiest thing I ever did was jump out of an airplane which we talked about earlier. Big time, yeah. Fun fact, my husband of almost 20 years took me skydiving the day he met my parents, right before he went and met my parents. So really bold choice. Panned out. We survived. Now we’re married. All is well. 

So, did he just step out of the plane because he’s like seven feet tall? Right. Yeah, just steps out right onto the ground? No, fun fact, no one wanted to jump with him because he’s so tall, and then this guy walked out that was, like, Lord of the Rings short guy, was like, “I’ll do it.” And I was like, “This… everything about this feels wrong.”  

It did not work, and so when they were jumping, he was so little that Chad had to open his arms to slow everything down, and he was so panicked, he kept his arms, and the guy was, like, pounding on him, like, “Open your arms, open your arms.” And he was bruised all over his shoulder because he was not slowing them down. So, needless to say, we didn’t do that again. No. That was a one and done. Check the box. Yeah, indeed. 

I think for me, it’s probably not, like, one thing that I enjoy. I just enjoy all of it. I mean, I’m for goodness’s sake, I have a blown-out rotator cuff right now because of all the things I do – mountain biking, rock climbing, mountain climbing, bridge jumping, all the things. But I also know, hey, this is what comes with taking risk, right? So, what’s yours? I know you don’t jump out of planes, but is it the taco thing? 

Raising three girls. Oh, okay. By far the riskiest to my health of all the things I do. Yeah, it might be. Actually, mine might be wrestling the three bears in my family. Well yeah, exactly. That’s true. Yeah. 

But you’re right. I mean, so many of the things that we do in life involve risk, and so when we have this conversation, folks, we’re going to talk about some things that are big market-like things, so systematic, unsystematic, but we’ll relate those back to also your personal plan. And then we’re going to talk about tolerance risk in our next episode, as well as retirement risk, like the risk that you run out of money. So super cool conversation. Caitlin’s going to join us this time. We’re going to have another guest next time. 

But Judson, I think maybe the best way and again, we can level set a little bit on our last episode or a couple episodes ago, we did talk about there’s differences between risk and uncertainty. 

Uncertainty is like, I have no idea what’s coming. Risk is, I don’t necessarily know it’s coming, but I do know that things have also happened in the past, and so I can probabilistically sort of plan when these risks come. So don’t just think it’s this uncertainty and it’s going to hit at some point. There are things we can do to plan around it, and we will definitely talk about that. 100%. 

So maybe we start with systematic, unsystematic in a broad definition? Yeah. Let’s talk about what the two types are defined as, right? So, I think probably the easier one to talk about, I don’t know, neither of them are necessarily hard, but if we talk about systematic risk, what we’re talking about here is a risk that affects everyone, right? 

It’s a broader type of risk that’s going to affect people of a certain group without any discrimination. Let’s put it that way. And this can be in any facet of your life. I mean, think the most common one we talked about earlier is what? 

Yeah, the most common one of the last 10 years is the pandemic. 100%. I mean, it just didn’t matter. You couldn’t plan for it. You couldn’t prepare for it. I don’t care how many N95s you had stocked away. None of it mattered. The pandemic hit, it didn’t matter what race, ethnicity, gender, location, wealth status, you were impacted. That’s right. And not just your investment plan, again, your whole stinking life. Everything. 

So, and I think a good way maybe to level set this too, Caitlin, is your example kind of like the storm and your cars. That’s another good example of what systematic risk is. 

Well, in Texas we have hailstorms, and I recently got caught in one coming home from soccer practice, and the kids were like, “What are you doing? Get out of it.” And I’m like, “Guys, there’s nowhere for me to go.” What are you going to do? Yeah. I’m in the middle of the freeway. Didn’t matter how nice your car was, what a good driver you are, whether it was leased, rented, owned, you name it, you were getting impacted by that hailstorm and it was going to be unfortunate. 

Yeah, so these are going to be your bigger, broader events. I mean, again, we’ve talked about health issues, or broader health issues like the pandemic. It can be weather events. These can be large economic changes that you have no control over it, but go to any sector, any business. 

Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about now what is an unsystematic risk. Okay, hold on one second. Before we do, I did want to leave one quote here. So, the guy that sort of coined the term behavior gap in investing is a guy named Carl Richards, and I love this quote that he had about systematic risk. 

He’s like, “Systematic risk is what’s left over after you’ve thought of everything.” That’s right. That’s it. For goodness sakes, there was an article in The Economist magazine, which is one of the most well-respected sort of economic magazine that’s out there, like nine months before the pandemic, and it said, “Here are the biggest risks to our market right now.” And by the way, none of them were listed a pandemic, right? 

So, it doesn’t matter how much you’ve thought about these things, systematic risk is going to come for you, and it’s a product of it. And I think the reality, y’all, is that- and we’ll talk a little bit more about this, there’s not really a way to avoid it. So, we will talk about kind of things that you can do sort of to get around it. 

But let’s first, again, double-click on unsystematic, Judson. One timeout. The way I view it is it’s the price of admission is a different way to think about it. Like, if you show up, it’s the cost of showing up, a systematic risk. It’s going to affect everybody, and you can’t get out of it. 

Well, and if you think about it, as we were talking about this, and we’ll talk about this a little bit more, in our daily life, we use insurance to mitigate risk. But for the most part, I mean, yes, some systematic risk can be navigated around, like maybe a hailstorm or something like that, but many systematic risks you cannot play around. I mean, there is flood insurance, but a lot of times there are caveats on that depending on what type of flood and all of that. So, I mean, they’re really hard to mitigate the risk on. 

Yeah, and I think we should definitely deep dive, okay, how do we do that? But again, let’s first, listeners, just go to the second one that Judson just mentioned, which is unsystematic risk. Okay, so parking lot systematic for a second. Judson, you want to give folks like a definition of what unsystematic risk is? 

Unsystematic risk is really a risk that affects one certain area. So, we define systematic as being unbiased, right? Unsystematic risk really affects a much smaller segment. It can be one person, one business, one family, whatever it is. It’s a much more defined risk. 

So, if you think about it, we use the pandemic in a small business as a systematic risk, a small business-related unsystematic risk would be like a disability of an owner or the sudden loss of a very key employee that affects the business negatively. Something that can be just as unforeseen but is much more narrow. 

Yeah, or it could be something that maybe like the town that you’re in. A factory closes down, right? And so, it’s like, everybody that’s still a small business in Dallas, Texas is still fine, but in your local community is being negatively impacted. 

And we see that, y’all, right? With our clients. We’ll see that a client comes in is like, “Judson, I’m down 10% this year. How is everybody else doing?” And it’s this awkward, “They’re all doing okay.” But again, it can come down to something very, very specific for that individual person. 

Now, the cool thing is there are ways to navigate around those, but before we get into that, Caitlin, from your perspective, like how do you see unsystematic in a financial plan? Not just the investment markets, but how do you see unsystematic playing out in a financial plan? 

I guess I would say I want to give you the answer to it. Like instantly I’m like, “Diversify, diversify, diversify,” because that’s the one way you can help avoid some of this risk, you know? And my co-pilot, she gets me. She’s also my biggest like hype person. Every time I ask her a question she’s like, “Man, that was such a good question. I just feel like I really know you, Caitlin.” 

And when I asked her for an example of unsystematic risk, her response was, ” It’s specific to an individual company, industry, or investment, and makes the kind of very dramatic documentaries you like to watch on Netflix.” There you go. I thought that was a great response. There you go. Great insight. That is funny. Yeah, that is good. 

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, again, we can talk about how to kind of get around it, but unsystematic, again, it’s a part of your plan, folks. There’s like not a whole lot you can do, because it is going to be a part of things. At the same time, again, it is the price of admission. 

So, both of these, both systematic and unsystematic, the only way to not have any of them in your life is to not get out of bed. It’s not to get engaged, right? You can be like, what… Maverick after Goose dies. He’s like, “Engage, engage, engage,” and he stays disengaged, and that’s the only way to remove both of these from your life. 

But I think y’all, we know at the very core, a financial plan and an investment plan, you have to be engaged. Otherwise, your plan won’t work. Yeah, it won’t work. Right? And so, as a result, you just pretty much have to have these, and again, what we’ve kind of cheated a little bit and talked about ways to sort of navigate around them and listeners, we will get to that. But I mean, there’s nothing secret here. You’re going to have it. 

Well, I think that’s kind of the whole point of this two-part series is risk is a necessity. It’s not a choice of whether you’re going to take no risk or be fully risked, right? It’s really a choice of how much risk you feel like you can take and how much you will take at a certain period of time. 

Because unless you’re just going to invest in cash, and like you just said, Hunter, if you do that, your plan’s not going to work, you have to take risk. And the point we’re trying to make is you do it in every area of your life, so it’s not absurd that you’re doing it in this area. 

Yeah, I mean, again, if you get in the car, you’re taking all kinds of risk. And yes, you might think, “Oh, I’ve got it mitigated with life insurance and auto insurance.” Yeah, but you’re still taking the risk, right? That’s right. And I think, like, Morgan Housel has a great quote on this when he talks about it. 

He says, “A common trait of human behavior is the burning desire for certainty in life despite living in an uncertain and probabilistic world.” And I love that because, again, at our core as humans, we want certainty, but the whole world doesn’t give us certainty, right? 

I mean, as we’re recording right now, folks, the Fed just hiked interest rates 25 basis points. Who knows? It could’ve been a hike, it could’ve been a cut, it could’ve been a pause. I think we all kind of believed it would be one of the two. But the reality is that it’s uncertainty, and so you just kind of have to deal with that because otherwise you’re just not going to be engaged at all. 

Okay, so we talked about examples of systematic risk sort of outside of the financial markets, and we used the pandemic, we used a big hailstorm. Caitlin and Hunter, what comes to your mind immediately when I say, “Okay, name a couple systematic risks to the economy or to investments that are systematic”? 

Strait of Hormuz. Anything geopolitical. Yep. Yeah, I think Great Depression. So, wars. I mean, we’re talking about wars. Great Depression. Great Depression. Recessions. GFC, Dotcom. I mean, there was no hiding. And again, I mentioned this earlier when I said the economists didn’t predict the pandemic, you can’t predict them a lot of times either. They just happen, right? , It’s an unpredictable world, but I think all five of those, yeah, wars, recessions, financial crises, they kind of hit you out of nowhere, and there’s not a lot of places to hide when they happen. 

Well, and Hunter, you brought up an example earlier. Do you want to share with our listeners something that is a byproduct of the current geopolitical situation that is hitting consumers today? 

Yeah, that’s right. I mean, last night when we were watching what was going on, especially with the drone strikes in the Middle East on the different, oil lines and whatnot. You think, “Oh no, what’s going to happen to fuel prices?” This morning, diesel is hitting $6 in Dallas. It’ll probably be $15 a gallon in California before too long. 

That’s a perfect example. I mean, there’s just pretty much nothing you can do to hide from a geopolitical risk that gets magnified even more so with something like that and it’s going to impact everything. I mean, is it going to impact every single individual stock? No. But it could lead to bigger things that eventually do. 

And those are the things, again, folks, that I think intuitively we know as people that have financial plans that they’re going to happen, and yet we still stay engaged. So, I mean, I think that’s the way you have to view these things is they’re going to happen. Hopefully they happen infrequently, but in your investment, retirement, financial plan life cycle, you just better be prepared for five or six of them. Absolutely. 

Okay, so then again, staying in the financial market investing realm, we talked about unsystematic outside of that, being the disability or departure of a key employee, maybe the shutdown of a factory in your specific area. Let’s talk about what unsystematic risks in financial markets look like. 

Fraud, CEO embezzlement, right? A failed product launch Yeah, I think what’s really interesting about certain unsystematic things, you look like an Enron, for instance. And Enron led to another one that eventually led to a bigger issue, right? And it became more of a systematic issue. 

But you’re right, like those little things that can just start with one company. I mean, the one that just comes to the top of my mind right now is Nike, right? So, you’ve got Nike stocks down 86%. It just got kicked out of the S&P 100. Hell, it could be kicked out of the S&P 500 for all we know here in short order. 

But that was a company that for all intents and purposes was on the up. They brought in a brand-new CEO who made some bad decisions, and boom, the company’s gone like that. One CEO decision, right? It is a couple of different things the CEO decided, but it’s one person that sort of did that. But meanwhile, OnCloud’s kicking butt, Brooks is kicking butt. 

So a systematic one would’ve been across the entire retail landscape or the entire stock market. An unsystematic one was key to just Nike, and it’s really insulated there. Yeah. 

Which, man, wouldn’t imagine 20 years ago Nike being knocked off the top of the mountain. Hell, five years ago. Yeah, true. Right? I mean, five years ago, basically every businessman and woman were rocking the Nikes with their suits, you know? Yeah. And, and now yeah, it’s down 86% from high. 

But I mean, I think that’s a good example of an unsystematic risk, which, I mean, again, probably leads us, y’all, to talking about how you navigate around them. And again, the easiest one, of course, is unsystematic. You already mentioned it with diversification. Because look, we all own Nike. Every single person listening to this probably owns a share of Nike somewhere in your portfolio. But you being down 86% in that one share is not nearly as impactful because, Caitlin, as you said, you own a whole bunch of other stuff too, right? And those things are doing well. 

Right, and it’s not just diversification in the individual stock, right? We could sort of back up here for a minute and say you can diversify in just stocks and bonds and alternatives and cash, and then inside of those you have all your different diversification options all the way down to the individual holding where you end up with a Nike. 

Well, I think it bears worth talking a little bit, right? Because when we’re talking about that, and Caitlin, you bring up a good point, is the first area of diversification, we talk about it a lot as investment advisors, is your stock-to-bond ratio or your equity-to-bond ratio. 

But when we’re really talking about it as advisors, it goes much beyond that, right? Not only because we have access to things like private investments, but because many of you have real estate portfolios that are part of your investment portfolio. Think outside your home. 

And you may have other sectors or other types of investments that go along with that, and all of those need to be discussed. But think that’s one of the things that we see probably with our clients the most is – I would say that a lot of the time we don’t see over-investments with clients in one stock or bond. 

We see it more with outside investments like investment real estate, rental homes. When a client comes in and they think that this is the one thing that will create the best return for them, and it’s hard for them not to be overallocated. But the same thing is true when it comes to their portfolio. 

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you think about what happened to real estate in 2007 through 2009, and so if that’s where you were allocated, you’re just getting bludgeoned, and it’s really hard to do something as you rise out of that. Meanwhile, a lot of other folks are buying stocks, mutual funds ETFs right after that and rising out of it very nicely while those in real estate are stuck. 

And I think that’s the concept here when we think about diversification is it’s like, it’s not just diversifying out of one stock. It’s being in multiple geographies, multiple sectors, multiple industries. And that’s why we probably talk about it all the time. 

You’ve heard us say time and again, diversification’s protection against ignorance. It’s our good old friend Buffett, and that ignorance is recognition that there is unsystematic risk in the process and in the market, and I don’t know where it is, and so as a result, this is how I’m going to solve for it. 

Well, one of the other areas that I thought I’d bring up, Caitlin, because I know you deal with this, and I’m dealing with this with a client right now, is an overallocation due to stock options. Right? Absolutely. And how over time you can become totally over-invested in one stock if you’re not managing that. And it’s hard to get out of because you have allegiance to that company, and that can spread beyond that. 

What terrifies me is it’s not even just the stock options. That same company is the one making your payroll, is paying your health insurance. If your spouse works for the same company, your entire livelihood could be wrapped up in one company. 

Yep. Absolutely. And I think until you experience a loss of something, like we talk about all the time, everybody’s decision-making is tied up with their past experiences. Until you experience it, a lot of times you don’t realize that you had screwed up by being over-allocated there. The problem is you may not be able to recover from it. 

And the other problem is you’re not even aware because we’re human beings, we want a repeatable process. So, going back to your real estate for a minute, it worked so well the first time, why wouldn’t I just do that again? It’s always going to work the same, and we all know it’s not. We’ve seen that, right? The house in Florida, the house in California, the house in Texas, they’re all different, and they’re different markets.  

I think one of the things that we see when it comes to real estate is because it’s something our clients can go and they can see and they can put their hands on and everything else like this. And a stock portfolio can feel ambiguous. It’s just some names on a website that feel different than that tangible asset. But for that very reason, that’s why the risk in a broad portfolio can be so much less than that tangible asset. 

Circling back on the executive comp for a minute, the reason people get emotionally attached to these securities too is because it might be the one security that made them rich, right? Yeah. And I have several, like in big pharma, and they hit it big. It’s like you won the lottery. Like, this is it. Exit. 

Now we have to diversify because if you don’t exit, we all know the horror story that can follow, right? But if you get emotionally attached to that security, you think this process that happened will continue to happen on repeat, that’s where you get yourself in trouble. 

The other thing that we are not talking about when it comes to this is there’s not just investment risk – market risk, excuse me. Unsystematic risk could also look like tax law changes. Yep. 

And so, we talk all the time about the importance of diversifying into different types of tax buckets, getting your money into Roth, getting your money into after-tax assets because it helps protect against the unknown, that unsystematic risk that might occur when Congress passes a new tax bill or something changes on how IRS mandates RMDs from a various type of tax account. 

And so, you have to think, listeners, it’s not just market. It’s also this sort of broad exposure to other unsystematic risks like taxes and inflation and these other things. And so that’s why we talk all the time about really building out, Caitlin, a tax-diversified, a sector, a industry-diversified portfolio, right? Absolutely.  

I mean, it’s in all different types of buckets. It’s getting it extracted out of your business into different types of things because that does allow us to protect against the myriad of risks that are out there. 

It’s the freedom to choose, right? If you have everything in one bucket, you don’t have any options. You’re locked in. 

Well, and Hunter, we just recorded an episode with one of our international managers, and that talks about geographical diversification, right? Absolutely. 

And oh, by the way, like he said on there, it’s like you might want to be in banks in Europe, but only in two countries. I mean, that is where you really start to get to the granular and you don’t necessarily have to get overwhelmed with it too much, listeners, because, I mean, obviously most of you trust us with that stuff, but that is the element that I think you have to think through because we say risk is the price of admission, especially as we talk about systematic here in just a second the reality is that’s the only way to get around the unsystematic, okay, is to diversify. 

But guys, we do need to talk about systematic which I think the only way to not be subject to systematic risk is to just stay out of the game, and that’s not an option. Not an option. It’s just not. You cannot have a successful financial plan in any way if you stay out of the game. So as a result of that, what do we think, y’all, about navigating systematic risk? 

I think we have to understand if there was no risk, there would be no return. We would all be in the level playing field, and I think we’re all trying to do what it takes to get the little competitive edge to have a little bit more in our portfolio, but if we’re not willing to accept that risk, then we can’t play the game. 

Yeah, and I think the big thing is when we’re talking about this systematic risk is the whole reason that some of the ones we’ve talked about are like these bigger, larger events is because they’re unforeseen, right? Kind of the whole point of them and the reason we can’t mitigate them well is because we’re not expecting them, right? 

And so, I think that generally, even though some of those things like the Great Depression, like the Great Financial Crisis, like the pandemic caused all of us a lot of stress, we also, or our parents and grandparents also all made it through those. But the more set up you are in both your personal life and your financial plan in all other areas, the better you’re able to endure those risks when they come up. 

Yeah, I agree. Let’s just do this very simply, because I agree with what you’re saying. The three of us have been practicing in this space for around 20, 22, 23 years, okay? We’re all pretty similar in age. Caitlin’s a few years younger, but that’s okay. So, the reality is for the three of us, we’ve all been impacted by at least three systematic events, right? 

Now, the first one, which would’ve been dotcom/kind of Enron, I think we were most impacted because when we came out as CPAs, job offers were smaller, our comp was a little bit lower than people previous to that. Firms didn’t exist. Yeah, firms no longer existed. I was an intern when Andersen shut down. Yeah, exactly. 

So, I think that still impacted us in a way, right? And then of course, we had the GFC, and then we had COVID. So 20, 22 years, we’ve had three. What does that tell us? Every six, seven, eight years, one of these things is going to happen. 

But the reality is look at the three of us. We’re fine. We’ve figured out a way to navigate around it. We are better than we were prior to the first one, and if we had not been engaged, can you imagine? And the whole time, instead we said, “Okay, we know it’s coming. We can’t necessarily prepare for it, but when it happens, we’re not going to stress out about it, and we’re going to grow out of it.” 

Well, and I think really when you take a step back and you look at what we really do for our clients, we mitigate risk for our clients in many different areas on an ongoing basis. It may be the mitigation of risk that they have a tax bill that they’re surprised with. It may be mitigating the risk of a disability. It’s absolutely mitigating the risk that they don’t meet their financial goals, right? 

 I was with a client in Louisiana this weekend. This year is his 20th anniversary as a client, and he was talking about how even when there’s some news in his financial plan that he doesn’t like as much, he always leaves our meeting with a sense of relief. 

And that’s because our job is to mitigate our clients’ risks, and that’s what we’re talking about here, guys for those who may be non-clients, is how you can approach not only your financial life, but a bigger, broader life and mitigate the risks that work or don’t work for you. 

These systematic risks also create buying opportunities, which I think we can’t not mention, right? They’re really good for our portfolios, especially when we’re young. If you think about us, some of the first dollars that we ever saved were from 2006 to 2008. It instantly got cut in half. That was horrible timing, but since then, we’ve had a pretty good run, right? 

So, we started saving into a really great environment, and I think with risk comes reward, and with recessions also come the following uptick. So, it’s about buying at the right opportunity. 

Well and on our next episode about risk, we’re going to talk a little bit about that very thing. There is timing risk, absolutely within our retirement plans, within our life that makes a big difference. 

But Caitlin, let me ask you a question. If you guys have enjoyed Caitlin in her third time on the podcast, there’s another way where you can hear from Caitlin. You’re part of something called Real Talk With Your CPA, right? Yes. And what is that? 

We just drop little 60-second tidbits of information that are relatable to everybody to frequently asked questions, if you will, is probably the best way to put it. 

I’d recommend that you check that out. Where can I find those? Cain Watters YouTube Shorts. Okay. YouTube Shorts. Yeah. I want some YouTube shorts. Jorts. Yeah. Do they make YouTube jorts? Count me in on those. All right, folks. Caitlin, thank you. Of course. This was fantastic. 

We’ll be back with two more types of risk. You have to tune in, so as always, the best way to keep up with us is to subscribe so you don’t miss this one or the next one. That way you’ll never miss anything. You can go back and listen to all the others. If you’re enjoying us so far, please leave us a review. 

Got a question, comment, or suggestion for a future episode (thank you, Blake Gruby), drop us a line at cainwatters.com/wealth. We really do answer these, and if you want to learn more about what the three of us do when we’re not recording these episodes, visit cainwatters.com to see how we’re helping almost 4,000 clients reach their long-term financial goals and navigate and mitigate risk. 

Risk is a great board game.